Their conversation began around the dinner table, a gay married couple in ministry pondering the mysteries of faith and life. Now their conversations have gone public in a podcast they hope will inspire United Methodists and other spiritual seekers to discuss the deep, uncomfortable questions many find unwelcome in church.
“The Inclusive Faith” podcast launched May 26, hosted by Gregory S. Neal and his spouse, Kade Rogers. Neal is senior pastor of Grace United Methodist Church in Des Moines, Iowa, where Rogers is director of communications and also serves as director of ministry at a related church start, Southside Church and Community Center.
Their podcast grows out of their struggles both as gay men and as ministers seeking to help people find faith in Jesus Christ that brings hope, community and strength for daily living in an often-hostile world. In fact, they said, their struggles for acceptance of their marriage and as gay men in ministry have opened them to the similar-but-different struggles of all people, especially young people.
Their public witness began with their 2022 wedding in Dallas. Because The United Methodist Church outlawed same-sex weddings at that time, Neal was brought up on charges in the then-North Texas Annual Conference. Despite support from the eight Reconciling Ministry Network congregations in Dallas, they faced painful backlash and rejection. The experience led Neal to transfer to the Iowa Annual Conference, which despite encompassing a traditional agricultural community has been a UMC leader in social justice. Neal was appointed to Grace UMC, a Des Moines congregation with a long history of social justice ministry that was “absolutely delighted” to receive them, he said.
With such a context, they hope “The Inclusive Faith” will be a pathway to faith for their audience.
“We were having conversations that I felt sure others in religious circles were having,” Rogers said. “I thought we should have these conversations in public for people to witness.”
Neal added: “We wanted to speak from our own experience as out queer people serving in ministry in a Mainline church. Our LGBTQ issues are important, but they’re not all our focus.”
Rogers agreed: “We want to ask people what’s on their minds. How is it with your soul? We want to take church beyond the sanctuary walls to meet people where they are.”
“We want to take church beyond the sanctuary walls to meet people where they are.”
After getting feedback on the podcast’s pilot from friends and colleagues, they’ve already recorded 13 episodes, which they’re releasing every other week and are planning a second season for the fall. The podcasts are distributed through most major podcast platforms and in video on YouTube.
Neal and Rogers said they start the series by telling their own faith stories. For example, there’s an episode in which Rogers, who grew up in a theologically conservative church in Oklahoma, talks about his struggle with reading the Bible literally. In another episode, Neal discusses going through “conversion therapy” as a young man, a topic he also covers in his new book, Suspended Grace: A Queer Pastor’s Journey, coming from the UMC’s Abingdon Press in November.
Other episodes focus on topics such as Christian nationalism, the idea of “the rapture,” heaven and hell, and the “clobber passages” in Scripture regarding homosexuality.
“We turned the lighting backdrop to red for the ‘hell’ episode,” Neal said with a laugh.
One topic that especially concerns Rogers involves the church “overpromising” benefits from spiritual practice.
“The church promises too much, especially to young people,” he said. “The church says, ‘If you walk in the door, all your troubles will be gone, God will take away all your pain.’ That’s not true, and the church does people a disservice by overpromising, especially when it leads people into toxic faith and toxic congregations that end up doing harm.”
“The church promises too much, especially to young people.”
Both men acknowledged there are risks involved with “The Inclusive Church,” some from the tender topics they’re tackling and some from hatred toward them as gay men.
“Young people are deeply untrusting of institutions, but we see they’re still spiritual; they want to change the world,” Rogers said. “We should be able to talk about these things and not be perfect people; there are things Gregory and I don’t agree on.
“People who’ve been hurt by the church, LGBTQ people, are afraid, even of Greg and I,” Rogers added. “It’s the air of judgment that gets attached to Christianity that we’re trying to address.”
Like most LGBTQ Christian leaders in today’s “heightened political world” as Neal calls it, the couple refuse to let threats of physical violence keep them from witnessing.
“We’ve had death threats in mail and phone calls,” Rogers said. “Every time we do something public, I think, ‘Is today the day when the hate comes out?’ I’m absolutely not going to let it silence me.”
Neal said: “I’m not going to live my life in hiding. I did that for decades as a young kid and as a minister. I came out of the closet, and I can’t go back.”